What would you do? And paging Steve Lehto!

"deekster_caddy" (deekster_caddy) 01/15/2018 at 09:13 • Filed to: None

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So a relative’s and one of the cars I maintain has a mechanical engine problem. I’ve had the flu all weekend so haven’t been able to tear the engine down but it is most certainly a mechanical issue, ie bent valve etc. The problem? The issue happened while being valet parked. She drove a friend to a doctor’s appointment and the hospital offered valet parking which she used, no charge. Ran fine when she dropped it off, when she got it back it was running rough and the check engine light was flashing. It will barely drive at anything above idle and has a code P0300, which is a general misfire (it can’t even specify the cylinder).

My assumption is that the valet had the car parked in snow and punched it to get out of the ice, while the engine was cold, so it either bent a valve or chipped a piston (no knock protection until the coolant temp is close to normal), I won’t know more until I get an inspection camera in there to find out.

The question is how much is the valet service responsible for? She has no receipt since it was “free”, and they used their own number tags on the keys which they kelpt. She does have a witness (the person she drove to the doctor). If it turns out to be a bent valve are they only responsible for the ‘book value’ of replacing a bent valve? Or should we push them for an engine rebuild if it’s a chipped piston? Realistically these engines are pretty available used in good condition and that might be the least amount of labor... It’s an older high milage car.

What should we be doing in this situation? She babies her car and can’t afford the repair on her own. She has no car until we get this fixed, should we be pressing for rental coverage? Should we contact her insurance agent? (She doesn’t have comprehensive).

tl;dr Valet blew the motor in my mother in law’s car, not sure what their liability is or how to pursue them.

TheRealBicycleBuck > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 09:44

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If they balk at taking responsibility, she might be able to make a claim on her own insurance. The deductible would be cheaper than the repair and the insurance company should go after the valet service to subrogate the claim.

rillweid - Now with more TRD and less TDI > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 09:49

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Worked as a valet last summer and IIRC our insurance did not cover any type of mechanical failure because it’s unlikely you can prove fault. I would start by calling the company and requesting a copy of the liability contract. This is usually on the back of the ticket but if you don’t have that I’m sure they would provide you another copy. Following that your next step would be to file a claim with the valet company. If you feel they are at fault I would probably go ahead and file a claim as the worst thing they can do is say no. Generally claims will have a higher success rate if you file immediately on scene after incident but having a witness will help your case somewhat. Hopefully that’s clear and let me know if you have any more questions.

Wacko > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 09:50

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Unless you can prove any wrong doing by the valet i don’t think she has much of a case against them. 

And seriously doubt that the car had enough time to cool down just for the time of a doctors appointment.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 10:42

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That will be difficult to prove. Are the codes still there? If you haven’t cleared them, look at freeze frame data. This would tell you what conditions the vehicle was in when the fault set, such as:

Coolant temp

Engine load

Engine speed

Throttle position

Time since engine start

Engaged gear

Vehicle speed

Might take more than a generic scan tool to read all of it though. Those often only give a set list of a certain number of items. And if it’s a European car it might not give anything at all, depending on the car and the tool.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 11:16

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“The question is how much is the valet service responsible for?”

If you ask the valet service and their lawyers, they’ll say they aren’t responsible for anything. Nothing... Nada... Zilch... Nichts... Niente... Nihilum. ..

And you’ll have an uphill battle trying to prove anything.

And for a ‘general misfire’ problem, I would think it’s more likely to be an issue with the ignition coil or a bad spark plug or some other electrical issue rather than a bent valve.

http://www.myautorepairadvice.com/p0300.html

And if the motor is running, it’s probably not ‘blown’.

The first step is to take the car to a mechanic and do a full diagnosis to figure out what’s wrong.

deekster_caddy > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/15/2018 at 12:13

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True. If I do the repair I can keep the costs way down, involving her insurance doesn’t seem to make sense in that case.

deekster_caddy > Wacko 01/15/2018 at 12:14

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She was there for about two hours (have you been to a senior’s appointment?), enough time to cool down when it’s 15 degrees outside.

The only proof is her and her witness who can both verify it was fine when dropped off and running rough with a flashing check engine light when returned...

deekster_caddy > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/15/2018 at 12:18

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Never heard of freeze frame data before. I did reset the code, it comes back immediately. Didn’t know I could retrieve that :(

deekster_caddy > rillweid - Now with more TRD and less TDI 01/15/2018 at 12:19

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I believe the Valets are hospital employees. We’ve asked to speak with hospital management but haven’t been contacted yet.

deekster_caddy > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/15/2018 at 12:22

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I’m the mechanic. It’s not “blown” in that it still runs, but it’s not an electrical problem. I got the flu right after it happened, haven’t had time to do a compression test or get my inspection camera inside, but it’s got a very mechanical ‘thud’ to it’s exhaust sound. I put new plugs and wires on because I had them, same thud, going to dig deeper as soon as I can spend some time in the garage again.

brianbrannon > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 12:22

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They are definitely not responsible for maintaining engines

Wacko > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 12:33

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2 hours at 15f ain’t cold enough to really cool down the engine.

sure it lost a few degrees but no way is that engine “cold”

that’s only -10c.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 13:01

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Ah... ok.

Yeah... if you’ve checked the plugs, wires and ignition coil (or coils), then it just might be something more serious. But even revving the daylights out of it shouldn’t cause a bent valve unless the timing belt/chain broke or skipped a tooth. And most modern vehicles have built in rev-limiters to prevent damage.

Though I recall in the case of the Ford Escorts with the 1.9L/2L SOHC 2v engine, they had issues with dropping valves/valve seat failures.

deekster_caddy > Wacko 01/15/2018 at 13:04

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If the coolant temp is below 160 there is no knock protection, at least on this engine.

deekster_caddy > brianbrannon 01/15/2018 at 13:06

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No, but it ran fine when handed off to the valet, was broken on return... seems like they should be liable for some part of that. I’m responsible for maintenance on this engine and it’s been very well cared for.

deekster_caddy > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/15/2018 at 13:09

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This is a GM 3800 with ~150K miles on it. I’ve got others in my extended family fleet with double the milage on it. They are durable engines. I’m thinking a careless driver punching it to get out of the snow immediately after starting. Not exactly a hoonable kind of car.

Wacko > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 13:33

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what is the car?

deekster_caddy > Wacko 01/15/2018 at 13:52

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04 Buick LeSabre

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 15:08

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Yeah... the Buick 3800 was a great engine. With that engine, I would still be more inclined to think it was something other than a bent valve.. unless the timing chain or the tensioner has issues.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 15:36

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Yeah every time a fault sets it stores all engine control module information at the time of the fault. It’s incredibly useful. Unfortunately, without that, I doubt you’ll get anywhere with the valet service. It’s just a blame game without facts at this point. You said yourself it’s a high mileage car, sometimes they just break. Still doesn’t hurt to bring it up, but I wouldn’t waste a lot of time on it.

deekster_caddy > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 01/15/2018 at 16:30

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I know these engines pretty well, I’ve rebuilt a few, done some intercoolers on supercharged versions etc. based on experience and the symptom I’m 99% sure I’m going to find a chipped piston. But whatever I find the question remains about the valet’s responsibility here.

deekster_caddy > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/15/2018 at 16:38

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I’ve had or maintained over 10 different cars with the 3800 engine and never had one break period. This particular one is driven ‘old lady’ style and everything is maintained on schedule. I’ve seen these engines with more than double the milage still mechanically original inside, so I don’t agree with ‘they just break’ unless there is abuse involved. Difficult to prove, but circumstantial evidence very much points to abuse by the valet...

deekster_caddy > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/15/2018 at 16:41

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Sorry for the double reply, but ‘wouldn’t waste a lot of time on it’ is a separate response. The owner doesn’t have money to spare, this repair is far out of her very limited budget. Therefore it’s worth pursuing at least.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 19:35

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I didn’t know it was a 3800. Unless the intakes blow up they’re usually super solid. So I know what you mean. But I have seen rings go on them, just not suddenly. Good luck.

deekster_caddy > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/15/2018 at 21:02

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I was trying to leave the vehicle/engine out of it and focus on the ‘gave it to them fine, got it back broken’ part. Seems like this is the wrong forum for that ;)

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > deekster_caddy 01/15/2018 at 21:05

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At the same time though, I doubt the valet service or any court would see it the same way and care about what engine it is.

deekster_caddy > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/15/2018 at 21:20

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true, and another reason I left it out of my description. Seems like nobody thinks they are responsible, but I can damn near guarantee this wouldn’t have happened if she had parked it herself. I’m sure she only used it because it was closer than the handicapped spots she usually takes. (Yes, she is allowed to use them and does).

brianbrannon > deekster_caddy 01/20/2018 at 12:24

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Assuming that the valet punched it so hard it over revved an automatic with a rev limiter is entitled muck.  

deekster_caddy > brianbrannon 01/20/2018 at 18:39

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Well I’m not thinking ‘overrevved’ in terms of hitting the rev limiter, more like overrevved for a just-started cold engine. If the car was parked on a patch of ice or in some snow (both likely), it spins and they punch it to get off the ice... that’s the only way i can think of it would have happened.